Steam Driven Water Make Up Pump

KBIO

Thankyou for letting me join this model steam/marine WEB site

Does any member [Bernhard BB?] have a Regner 20240 water pump?...I understand 480 EURO :affraid: .....but appear good quality & very realistic

I would be most interested in learning about it ........there are no registered importer to Australia & Regner have ignored my two e-mails so have contacted the UK importer
I would also be interested in getting a non PDF data sheet so I can translate and also having the port size confirmed

My build is very slow & multi cultural :cheers:
Scottish boiler, steam regulator & de-oiler
French gas regulator
German flanges, lubricator & flywheels......
English gas tank & many gauges
Japanese 9cc horizontal paddle engine
Australian blood sweat & a few tears :mon dieu

Derek

sorry....the Japanese engine is a SAITO Y2DR and of 9cc........I also load some images of 100 KB each only :sala: ...I try again.......Derek

Hello! :(
I am glad to see your name on this forum!
You are most than welcome and you can take advantage of this "Fellows from overseas" post.
It will always be someone to answer in English.

To answer to your question , concerning the Regner Steam pump: what I've heard, is that it is damned expensive and that he does not push on selling as it is not reliable, and Regner does not want problem.
In fact, there are a few to be reliable!
Eventually, I can give you a private link to have one made as the one I have in the KURUN. It is working perfectly and the few tests I did, make me confident enough to put it in my boat.
I forgot! I know that Bernhard has a servo driven pump. If I remember , he was alos complaining about the price of weird pump!
I like your set up! Globalisation helps the diversity in our hobby! Good to see things , differently.
Thanks Derek for participating and do not hesitate to post.
Kind regards!

Thanks for the advice on the 20240 pump KBIO

I had considered the alternate Regner 20225 servo driven pump....but @ 350ml/h is too small for a 9CC engine...Bernhard also mentions that the 20225 is just OK for the smaller Monahan engine 4CC?

The other offputting aspect of the 20225 is the noise :hurle

Bernhard......does the noise come from the servo gears or the piston?

Clearly two piston pumps could not be used in series, but am not sure if the check valves would allow two 20225 pumps to be installed in a common parallel delivery manifold :affraid: :nono

If I could overcome the noise I would investigate the possibility of understanding if two 20225 pumps could be installed 180 degrees out of phase or if additional check valves would be required????????

Derek

Hello Derek! :(
I am surprised:
Ex:
a) Estimated 9cc ,steam engine consumption @ 300 RPM during 1 Hr :
9 cc x 300 RPM x 60' = 162 000 cc
= 162 L of steam
b) Given Regner's pumping capacity :
= 360 Ml / Hr
= 0.360 L / Hr of water
c) steam table gives (thumb rule) :
= 1 Lt Water gives +/-1100 L of steam @ 2 B abs
WRONG: 1 L of water gives 900 L @ 2 B Abs
So the Regner pump will be able to generate :
1100 L of steam x 0.360 L of water
= +/- 396 L of steam per hour
Wrong : gives 324 L
Conclusion: The Regner pump is able to deliver , at least twice more steam that the engine requires.

NOW! And this is the main problems:
- The engine itself has probably +/- 30% thermic losses , due to the installation and the mass of the body. > 20% is currently admited in our installations.
- The Regner pump capacity is given considering the piston displacement and not the real pumping volume efficiency, considering differential pressure in & out.
I do not know what is the efficiency of such a pump but I would not expect too much , due to the size , the piston course, valves seals,and electric power.
I am not sure that the piston travel, allows enough time for the valves to seat properly , and to inject water inside the boiler.
The priming is erratic . It has to be feed permanently with a positive displacement to allow some efficiency. Boiler back pressure is also a brake to the feed.
And some other factors that I ignore.
But I would not consider this type of pump as a reliable accessory. Probably better on smalls trains Regner's engines.
-The noice is most probably coming from the metal gears and bearings that are fitted , as the servo is submited to the high stress of working against pressure.
This is not a problem , except for artisitic hears like ours!
-I think that this pump is good at filling up, an atmospheric pressure tank.
Maybe good to ask Bernarhd if he has more accurate figures to give us.

Here I stand Derek! I hope that I have been of any help, but have someone to double check on my calculations, it wouldn't hurt. (and I wouldn't be mad! :sala: )
See you soon.
Cheers!

Thanks KIBO for the calcs .........a few years back I looked at similar results, however when reading comments [as below] from Bernhard in December 2010, concluded his were from real life water displacement tests about his Regner 20225 Servo Pump
Reading a German text catalogue in .pdf & not being able to translate technical German to domestic German is difficult for me
I see the catalogue nominates to 7 Bar & 360 ml/h ...[I wondered if theses figures could be similar to "Chinese AMPS" ]
I have re- watched the video from Bernhard with the pump under load :hurle .....I estimate the RPM...to be approx. 1 RPM....& yes the noise appears to be from the servo gearing under the compression stroke....approx. 2:43 minutes into the VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktNLFwTAWUs
A third possibility :study: Regner also produce a piston pump head Best No 20221 @ 20.50 EURO...I could consider adapting one of these to a larger and quieter geared motor running @ say 2 RPM :comprend pas .....
I am hoping that Bernhard may read my question & confirm again.............Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


From Bernhard BB on Model Mayhem #59 on: December 16, 2010, 06:46:17 AM » talking about his Regner 20225 Servo Pump

"hi..........I open the pump just a few minuets after the engine start...and it delivery just enough water,,,fore 45-50 minuets...... 350ml in ahoy,,,,,,,,you can also have it to delivery 550ml...it is from regner,,,,Germany
you can find it in the catalog http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de/ i have another on from Usa in my Lady Jane,(they dont make that eny more),i use that with no control to....i open it after ,the boiler is around 1/2 full...and thats OK.........
Regards Bernhard

Hello Derek! :(
Let's try to have Bernarhd , to come here and give us some explanations. I send him a mail.
As he says, he disconnected the pump and checked the flow rate => with no back pressure (I guess). May be another story with boiler pressure.
I do not have the answer. In any case , it is a good subject to investigate. Those pumps are handy.
.I estimate the RPM...to be approx. 1 RPM..
Uhhhh! Probably a mistake of printing here. I'll check on the video later on today and I'll try to find out, how many strokes per min.
Regards Derek!

Hello again! :(
I have counted 60 Strokes per min on the Bernhard's Regner pump.
The pump is given for :
Diam = 4 mm
Stroke = 10 mm
So , a displacement capacity of = 0.123 cc x 60 Strokes = 7.4 cc of water per min, or 444 ml water ,in one hour.
The pump is given for 360 ml / Hour. I guess that the stroke is efficient on +/- 8 mm only.
Just to show , that , all this is theorical , and what we have on the paper is far from the real life.

You know how , the engineers are! You come with one problem, you go out with two.
Maybe , I shouldn't say that, as you may be one of them!
Some are working with steam weight, as they were facing different fluids & pressure in their career. This is great, but we, steamers, , are always dealing with fresh water and with +/- 2 B Abs working pressure.
And me, I have a small head and I am a lazy boy, so I remember one figure only, and it helps me out on the bank of the pond.
- 1 liter of fresh water gives 1100 liters of steam @ 2 B Abs.
WRONG: 1 L gives 900 L @ 2 B Abs . i TOOK THE WRONG COLUMN;
This is what shows saturated steam tables.
From here , I just have to multiply any of water volume by 1100 to know my steam volume at working pressure.
Easy no???
So, the pump should be able to generate 7.4 cc x 1100 = 8140 cc/min of steam @ 2 bar. ===> x 60 = 488 400cc of steam in one hour
We said that the engine consumption is (theorically) = 162 000 cc (therorical) .
Once again , this proves that the pump is able to fill up the boiler 3 times faster that the engine can take. Even with an error factor of 50% .
So the problem is coming from somewhere else.
But let's go on, investigating! This is the main pleasure in steam work. Problems, mistakes, thought, calculations,....and best of all: exchanges with friends!
Cheers!

Hello Derek and KBIO
I just was reading your comments and cannot resist to enter in the conversation without invitation!
Derek, I see we both face the same geographic conditions and quite the same latitudes. I live in Brazil, and consequently have some difficulties in the steam shopping department.
That is why I was driven to make most part of my equipments ( OK OK it´s my hobby).

You are in the right place in this forum. I joined last December and found nice guys and I really do appreciate their contributions: they know what they say, even if they seem :cheers:

You steam combo is very nice!
If you are interested , I may send you the drawings for a water pump to be coupled to a Stuart D10. With the appropriate reduction, it may be driven by a Saito engine.

regards
Mimile

Sorry KBIO........I watched it carefully and yes .......it is 1 revolution per second...I also remade similar calculations last night & yes the pump is technically capable of maintain water for a 9 cc engine...

"I have re- watched the video from Bernhard with the pump under load :gun: :hurle .....I estimate the RPM...to be approx.1 RPM" :mart: :poel:

Will now look for a small, quiet & robust 6 volt DC motor approx. 50 to 60 RPM output .........

"1 liter of fresh water gives 1100 liters of steam @ 2 B Abs. This is what shows saturated steam tables" ...........This is a very good rule to remember.......Derek

Bonjure ....... Mimile says.......... "If you are interested , I may send you the drawings for a water pump to be coupled to a Stuart D10. With the appropriate reduction, it may be driven by a Saito engine.

Thankyou Mimile......... very kind...... I was trained as machinist many many [44 years ago]....... but alas :pleur I have no machinery of my own so am very restricted in what I can achieve

This is why I am considering a ready manufactured boiler water pump for me simply to connect........regards Derek

Hullo KBIO......Regner have ignored four e-mails asking for an Australian importer for their 20225 or 20221 boiler feed pump
:hurle ...so in frustration I have e-mailed and yesterday ordered a Chinese manufactured boiler feed pump [6 bore x 5 stroke] as below for $56.00

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Microcosm-M5-Steam-boiler-feed-pump-Twin-Cylinder-Steam-Engine-/151031060503?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D7083691793035142364%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D3%26sd%3D151025762118%26

It appears to have a bronze eccentric running in a bronze cage which by material selection may not be best, however it is oilable and I will drive by demand only and at 70 RPM electrically with a small 12 Vdc geared motor

Regner in total have ignored eight [8] e-mails over 4 weeks and I find this totally unacceptable [they did however send my enquiry to a USA distributor who contacted me ]

Conversely the Principal from the Chinese manufacturer "Microcosm Model Steam", answered my question, confirmed costing ....I paid by PayPAL and received an electronic tracking code all within 12 hours .......naturally I am very impressed with the business manner from this new Chinese manufacturer :( ....their steam components appear to be quality

I will naturally confirm the performance of the pump in the future....regards Derek

Hi Derek! :(
Thanks for this information. I would be upset too. I like some consideration from the shop where I buy to.
Nevertheless, I think that Regner is a serious company, But I wonder if the "Father" is still in charge.
Most of the time, I talk to the son, when I call there. The father seems taking his distances. And the train is the main business.
They do not answer to my order in any way, and suddenly , I receive the parcel! :comprend pas
I tell you what: whenever you have a problem , let me know, and I'll call for you and follow up.
For sure, we would appreciate your comments on this pump.
But right now, we cannot open your link.
Cheers Derek and lets go on, all together to keep the steam alive!

Hello Dereck

What time is it with you? it is night ? non ?

Hello all!
I'm here to apologize. Reading my pump calculations , I realize that I made a big mistake.
It changes the figures by 20% only but just for Derrek to remember :
1 cc of water gives 900 L @ 2 B
1 cc of water gives 600 L @ 3 B.
It will be enough to know for basic calculations , as we always work with same +/- same pressure.
I learn everyday and above all , that I should read myself : twice.
Sorry again !
Have a good week end!

:( Sorry Derek, but, unless you save the image on your PC and then post it on the forum, there is no way to access through your link.
"Access blocked" for any reason!
I do not understand why, but from France, we do not have access to this site.
:hurle AND I NEED TO SEE THIS PUMP NOW! SUSPENCE! :cheers:
We are holding our breath, so , please,...............
Thanks Derek!
Cheers!

Sorry KBIO....I did not understand the technology glitch :comprend pas

The Chinese M5 boiler feed pump is attached to the engine you show

Here are a few images.......Derek .....no ....... :affraid:

I am unable to post any more images as I only have 24 Kb remaining? .......... :mart: :hurle :biz :sleep:

Impossible d'envoyer le fichier : dépassement de la taille de votre espace de stockage. (Espace restant : 24 Ko)

:(
Congratulations!
You made it and you deserve a good, and fresh beer! :cheers:
(me too! )
We are waiting , now, that you tell us the performances of this pump.
If it worth it, it can be a good , cheap, purchase to help filling up the boiler.
Thanks Derek!
Regards!